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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Mar 14, 2020 11:30:52 GMT
As the title goes, this subject is often the center of many heated discussions and there is so much misinformation about it and people spreading false ideas that it really becomes eye-watering. We see daily lots of people not just who have no racing or engineering background whatsoever but also that have never even driven a car in anger on a track day or even in the street giving their *authoritative* opinion about what a car should or not do, or how whether a mod/game is realistic or not, that the background noise can be deafening.
The mods we develop in house can seem weird in some aspects at first to those used to the typical simracing game/mod, where you can basically overdrive the cars with no punishment at all and try to produce the "romantic", idealized experience people have invented about what driving certain race cars is, many times boasted intentionally by the press or the very own race drivers who wanted to increase the myth and hype. But the reality is that the final experience we provide here is way closer to the challenges of the real thing than what most sims or mods do. Austin Ogonoski has his own issues, but you can take most of what he says as a honest input on this all and unlike many of the most popopular youtube or physics guys, does have real life racing experience. I recommend that you follow his critical PRC trackside channel videos, and after watching his more recent one, I think this would be a good place to start for anyone interested in the subject.
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Post by Christian Dauger on Mar 14, 2020 12:04:40 GMT
ah, i'm not good enough in english to follow the video ... too bad
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Post by Jason Whited on Mar 15, 2020 15:48:46 GMT
ah, i'm not good enough in english to follow the video ... too bad Well, I made it 1:40 into the video, and I cannot bare it any longer. I can't really think of a more annoying troll in the 'sim racing community' than Austin O. Contrarian for the sake of it....pessimist, just for the reactions. Tossing around all the cliches (in less than 2 minutes)...generalizing all sim racers like he is 'above' the rest. So, TL;DR...you ain't missing much. ETA: IMHO
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Mar 15, 2020 17:02:48 GMT
Yeah like I said the guy has his issues, that is undeniable. But what he says about tires, and other aspects of real racing cars is correct. The problem is that because of what you pointed out, people miss the part of truth in what he says. But, do you think that f.e. Jimmy Broadbent, the nicest and more popular simracing Youtuber around does know more about real racing car physics than Austin?
People might be happy lapping around in cars that have nothing to do with the real thing in terms of what they require for strategy and driving technique but provide fun online, and that is fine as far as I'm concerned - But I do want something else, and that is why we created this league.
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Post by Richard Wilks on Mar 15, 2020 17:32:47 GMT
Well its exactly at 1:40 that he mentions the biggest problem i have seen in sim racing coming all the way from the GPL days, and something i have been trying to iron out from the mods i work on more and more.
Corner entry is THE fundamental "exploit" in sim racing, from the "grip flick" that he talks in a previous video, to having setups that allowed you to just "drift" into the corner and not getting penalized in any way for this (like the original rf1 F1 1991), bombing corner entry has been a hallmark of being "alien" tier in simracing.
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Post by Jason Whited on Mar 15, 2020 18:35:14 GMT
Yeah like I said the guy has his issues, that is undeniable. But what he says about tires, and other aspects of real racing cars is correct. The problem is that because of what you pointed out, people miss the part of truth in what he says. But, do you think that f.e. Jimmy Broadbent, the nicest and more popular simracing Youtuber around does know more about real racing car physics than Austin? People might be happy lapping around in cars that have nothing to do with the real thing in terms of what they require for strategy and driving technique but provide fun online, and that is fine as far as I'm concerned - But I do want something else, and that is why we created this league. Sorry, I dislike Broadbent just as much as I dislike Austin. Obviously, Austin has, substantially, more knowledge on the subject at hand, but his delivery (and attitude in general) is unbearable to me (but hey, that's just me. To each their own) I speak with real world drivers that sim race, and I've driven in anger myself. I prefer experiences and opinions from that 'silent' group that doesn't need to be the center of attention and I prefer to form my own opinions based on what I read and hear, verses from these youtube attention whore types. As to the latter part about wanting something else.....well, I mean, that's why I'm here driving mods you guys created
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Post by François Remmen on Mar 18, 2020 7:54:34 GMT
a general question to you all
"what you guys realy want to see in a sim" for example Lubricant leaks , wearing skidendplates etc
spit it out pls
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Post by Gabriele Maruca on Mar 18, 2020 15:24:58 GMT
I don't want to be "That Guy" that always ruins the fun for everybody, but when I see videos like the one from Ogonoski I can only keep my "Engineer's Autism" back so much before I jump around applauding like a maniac.
Yes, his delivery is brash, but there's a lot of truth in what he says. For example, the clutch. Jesus, where do I start with that: most sims do try to simulate a slip and how it deteriorates, but the real problem is HOW they do so. Clutches are finnicky things, they change the amount of torque and force transmitted just because it's a bit older or it hasn't been mounted properly or the contact pads aren't of the same exact material. But most simracers don't even know stuff like this, so when Polyphony Digital or iRacing get their "best" and let them race for real, they completely f*ck up the starts, the gear shifts and so on.
To visualize what I'm talking about, just look at Broadbent's latest video on his racing license at Hockenheim. He drove a diesel 2017 Ford Fiesta, the same car my pop has. And I can genuinely tell you he doesn't get advantage of the sheer understeer the car has, completely destroys the clutch because he kept smashing the poor thing during the bend exits, kept overcorrecting because he had way too much torque when either coming in or getting out. That's why you NEED to feather the clutch and why most sims DON'T have a realistic clutch and probably not one of them will ever do that.
Alright, rant over ^^;
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Post by Richard Wilks on Mar 25, 2020 0:47:31 GMT
And speaking of exploits..
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Post by Richard Wilks on Mar 29, 2020 14:21:56 GMT
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Post by Richard Wilks on Apr 3, 2020 1:38:26 GMT
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Post by Brian Janik on Apr 3, 2020 19:26:24 GMT
Yeah like I said the guy has his issues, that is undeniable. But what he says about tires, and other aspects of real racing cars is correct. The problem is that because of what you pointed out, people miss the part of truth in what he says. But, do you think that f.e. Jimmy Broadbent, the nicest and more popular simracing Youtuber around does know more about real racing car physics than Austin? People might be happy lapping around in cars that have nothing to do with the real thing in terms of what they require for strategy and driving technique but provide fun online, and that is fine as far as I'm concerned - But I do want something else, and that is why we created this league. Sorry, I dislike Broadbent just as much as I dislike Austin. Obviously, Austin has, substantially, more knowledge on the subject at hand, but his delivery (and attitude in general) is unbearable to me (but hey, that's just me. To each their own) I speak with real world drivers that sim race, and I've driven in anger myself. I prefer experiences and opinions from that 'silent' group that doesn't need to be the center of attention and I prefer to form my own opinions based on what I read and hear, verses from these youtube attention whore types. Problem is too many "silent" types dont provide info to those fairly new to simming, who are looking for a "real" experience but are unaware places like ISO exist. So with light research they end up following the masses and the echoing sound of Broadbent, GamerMuckHole, or other youtubers right to the "the "romantic", idealized experience" of other Sims that Alberto mentions. Where any average Joe can be a hero rather quickly if they know how to game. I think you (Jason and many others) know what you're after and that's why you're here, and can tune out to these guys But if I were to steer the beginner or the curious real racer to simming... Austin may be difficult to listen to for some, But agree/hope that people looking for solid info should tough it out and keep listening. Just like ISO Mods may be very difficult to drive for some, But people looking for that extra challenge that realism provides, should tough it out and keep practicing/Driving them
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 3, 2020 19:39:43 GMT
I tell you something, I could nowadays never ever go back to racing what that other people do. Once you have hindsight into how physics are made and find someone like Ricardo who can provide such an experience as we have here, I find most other stuff quite uninteresting. Seeing what other leagues do, running whatever mod someone with no clue cobbled together and pretending it is great and realistic just because it is "hard" makes me laugh. The amount of mods in rFactor 1, 2, AMS, AC, etc that are way, way off what the real cars are is appalling, and doing series with them only to see stupid lap times that are like much quicker than the real cars or some that can't even go in straight line without spinning (For heaven's sake, a vintage car that can't go straight - if they were rigged for something, it was for being stable in straight line!!) just for the sake of using whatever contents you wanted to organize a series with - thanks but no. I prefer to leave that to people/leagues with lower standards, who don't care about proper simulation of an era/car.
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 6, 2020 9:17:25 GMT
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Post by Richard Wilks on Apr 11, 2020 22:42:58 GMT
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 12, 2020 9:05:23 GMT
If this lockdown continues and the real life drivers keep being free to say what they think about the average sim out there, many fanboys will need a mortgage to pay the psychiatrist afterwards
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Post by Gabriele Maruca on Apr 13, 2020 22:23:44 GMT
Hence why i spend so much time here in ISO dialing in correct behaviour, and dialing out exploits from our mods. Something seriously overlooked even/specially in our games default content. To be completely blunt about it, I'm glad I stumbled across HSO that day. You guys really let me perfect my works as they really should be. Also the "It's hard, so it's realistic" angle makes me laugh hard: as Ozpata said to me plenty of time ago, "You know you've nailed it when it's easy to drive the car at legal speeds, but quite challenging when it's at the limit". I've found versions of that quote in books by Fangio and Moss, so it has to have some truth to it. For example, Grand Prix Legends gets its infamous rep because the 1.0 release was objectively wrong. the 1.212 version is as good as it can be and you can easily drive those coffins at legal speeds like those were Civics. Hammer those revs and you'll see how hard it gets. It's progressive and (to an extent) predictable in behaviour: the faster you go, the harder it gets to keep it under control. You can even try this at home, not that I recommend you to do it. For example, to test the new radiator on my (now defunct) Fiat Seicento, I used to do around 200 km up and down the interregional highway. The limit was 150 KPH, so the first 100 KMs were at 80 to test the cooling, the the rest as fast as it could go (about 130) to test it under stress. We're talking about a tout-avant here (all-in-front), so it was rather tail-happy at the bends but easy to keep under control at normal speeds. As soon as I've hit the limit it could reach the whole front felt light as a feather, the steering was almost dead and the chassis kept shaking like a washing-machine with a brick in it. I nearly crapped my pants. I did 30 kms like that (luckily there was a lot of open fields on both sides) and once I felt okay with the test, I dialled it down to not fuse the car. That gave me an inkling of an idea of how hard can it be to control a car at high speeds when it's absolutely bare-boned. When people just slide all over the place in the pit stalls and say that it's realistic, well... if it's a product of mine I feel dead inside and want to rectify it because it's not how it should work. If it's some others (for example, iRacing) I get really pissed because they're giving a false idea of what racing is really like. Hell, forget about racing, they give out a bad idea of how it is to actually drive at all!
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 14, 2020 7:26:44 GMT
Exactly. So much for 3000+ bucks Direct Drive FF wheels What you say about the cars being easy to drive at legal speeds and hard at the limit, that is in general true although of course you can make some precisions. As far as I can tell the real game changer is downforce, especially on modern open wheel cars. Those things can be hard to drive at legal speeds because they are not generating grip at all under 100 km/h and the hard compounds they need to resist the forces they are able to generate are too cold at such speeds. Then you have also the counterintuitive effect of "the quicker you go, the faster you can go through a turn". Normally on a car with no downforce as you go quicker you approach the limit more clearly and you feel it better. On downforce cars that happens also yes, but not before you climb a curve of grip to a peak that is way higher than you could expect. So it is not a linear progression, it's more of an elliptical curve and you need training and experience to adapt to it.
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Post by Gabriele Maruca on Apr 14, 2020 9:18:41 GMT
Exactly. So much for 3000+ bucks Direct Drive FF wheels What you say about the cars being easy to drive at legal speeds and hard at the limit, that is in general true although of course you can make some precisions. As far as I can tell the real game changer is downforce, especially on modern open wheel cars. Those things can be hard to drive at legal speeds because they are not generating grip at all under 100 km/h and the hard compounds they need to resist the forces they are able to generate are too cold at such speeds. Then you have also the counterintuitive effect of "the quicker you go, the faster you can go through a turn". Normally on a car with no downforce as you go quicker you approach the limit more clearly and you feel it better. On downforce cars that happens also yes, but not before you climb a curve of grip to a peak that is way higher than you could expect. So it is not a linear progression, it's more of an elliptical curve and you need training and experience to adapt to it. Seriously, I don't understand why people want DD wheels with absurd amounts of FF on them. It's not like we're talking about some Magneti Marelli starter here, but of some big industrial DC motors that could easily break your limbs all by themselves if you don't know what you're doing. Again, for the little FIAT i had: in that case, the "Turning Resistance" of the wheel was really high (as it was a car with no power steering...) when speeds were reasonably low or you had to make a manoeuvre (anyone said "farm tractor"?) but it got lighter and lighter with speed: at the limit it was virtually weightless, you could do whatever you wanted with it, but you'd have to pay a big price for it if you didn't know what you were doing or attentive enough. Physically it can be explained by the air rushing under the engine, forming a high-pressure pocket that lifted it and made a lifting force just underneath the oil carter. That's what I discovered by putting a model of the car in a wind tunnel at Uni (good thing the professor that let me do it was a gearhead too). If a car doesn't have wings or aerodynamic appendages to cause downforce most of the time that effect will hold true because of the aerodynamics of the car body alone. Obviously the effect is mitigated or exaggerated by the weight distribution and where the engine is, where the power is sent and so on. Obviously this doesn't really hold true when the aerodynamic effect has some reasonable weight to it (for example, '68 F1 and onwards), but the effects superimposition should work if we simplify things enough. To the wheels... I was thinking about replacing the G25 wheel I have with a racing or NASCAR-type because I really don't like how tiny the stock one feels... the base is still good though (bought it used), not going to trash it for some overpriced Fanatec
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 14, 2020 9:26:47 GMT
The problem is that the weight and diameter of the bigger wheel will likely destroy the internals of the G25, because the leverage will be so much higher. I know some people who did such mods have suffered that problem.
I miss cars without power steering, I can understand why they have added it even in competition as the downforce makes it so hard to turn the wheel (Once turned and the cars is sliding you can even have zero resistance, but you have to get there first), but man what a difference a direct connection to the wheels makes!
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Post by Petr Hlavac on Apr 17, 2020 7:50:53 GMT
Again, for the little FIAT i had: in that case, the "Turning Resistance" of the wheel was really high (as it was a car with no power steering...) when speeds were reasonably low or you had to make a manoeuvre (anyone said "farm tractor"?) but it got lighter and lighter with speed: at the limit it was virtually weightless, you could do whatever you wanted with it, but you'd have to pay a big price for it if you didn't knw what you were attentive enough. I experienced the same thing with our company car. It's a lousy Skoda Octavia 3 1.6tdi, the car definitely isn't set up for speed over 160kmh. But I do business trips to Germany, sooo... Around 180kmh (GPS, not on speedo) the steering becomes lighter. And as you reach 200, it's totally unresponsive, you need to turn the wheel significantly to make those Autobahn turns. Once i squeezed 219kmh out of this vehicle and there was no feel in that wheel at all. It has to be caused by aerodynamics, the air goes underneath the car and literally lifts it from the ground. Btw, I did 245 with my 17 years old BMW e46 330i and it was perfectly fine. I had better control than with Skoda at 130. It's obviously a huge difference when a car is designed for such high speeds.
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Post by Richard Wilks on Apr 29, 2020 18:10:51 GMT
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on Apr 30, 2020 12:14:30 GMT
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Post by Richard Wilks on Apr 30, 2020 13:23:15 GMT
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Post by Alberto Ibanez on May 6, 2020 17:28:54 GMT
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